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Old 09-04-2013, 08:09 AM   #1
Gunslinger
 
Joined: Jan 2013
From: Seattle, WA
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What do you guys consider "long range" for a pistol?

Curious what the PNWGuns tribe considers "long range" with a side arm.

Keeping in mind that there's a big difference between reactive and proactive scenarios...

Under the pressure and time constraints of a reactive situation, obviously your effective range is going to be drastically reduced.

But for those situations where you've got time to draw and make a carefully aimed shot...
 
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:18 AM   #2
Sharpshooter
 
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I've hit 18" plates at over 150 yards with my .357
 
Old 09-04-2013, 08:46 AM   #3
Gunslinger
 
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From: Seattle, WA
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by koorbloh View Post
I've hit 18" plates at over 150 yards with my .357
And yet some consider this "impossible!"

Good shooting Koorbloh. That's what I'm talking about :)
 
Old 09-04-2013, 10:13 AM   #4
Marksman
 
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From: Sherwood, OR
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The last IDPA match my brother was in had a 90 yard shot. A significant number of competitors had no problem hitting it.

I would consider anything around 100 yards "long range" and question the balistics of most calibers past that range.
 
Old 09-04-2013, 10:21 AM   #5
Marksman
 
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Joined: Dec 2012
From: Lacey, Wa
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150 with my 44mag
150 with my 357mag
100 with 45acp
100 with 9mm

of course with the latter 2 took me a few shots.

18" round steel plates at 150
gravestone shaped silhouettes at 100
 
Old 09-04-2013, 11:26 AM   #6
Sharpshooter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
And yet some consider this "impossible!"

Good shooting Koorbloh. That's what I'm talking about :)
"impossible" is a horrible word.
 
Old 09-04-2013, 11:57 AM   #7
Gunslinger
 
Joined: Jan 2013
From: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koorbloh View Post
"impossible" is a horrible word.
Yes. I think people don't like to question their assumptions about what is possible.

It just takes practice.
 
Old 09-04-2013, 07:58 PM   #8
Gunslinger
 
Joined: Jan 2009
From: Marysville
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Jeebus, I cant even see that shit at those distances, and my eyes are the best working part of my body. :/
 
Old 09-04-2013, 09:46 PM   #9
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From: Marysville, WA
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I hit the side of a hill at 800 yards with a Glock 19.
 
Old 09-04-2013, 10:41 PM   #10
Marksman
 
Joined: Nov 2009
From: WA
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I shoot at the moon fairly often. I use the hubble as a spotting scope.

Here is my group from last week -



You can clearly see I'm pulling left a bit....I need to dry fire more to clean that up.

All kidding aside, distance with a handgun is like running a scooter at a track day. fun every once in a while but not very productive and it's not going to improve your lap times. The time and money spent getting good could be better used honing skills you are statisically going to need in a gunfight. Practice for what's probable....

Might you have to take a 100 yard shot with your defensive handgun? Possibly a very very slim chance and your training time and ammo budget should reflect that.

http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.c...-findings.html - good info on what's "probable" as compared to what's "possible"

Last edited by Brianaintright; 09-04-2013 at 11:10 PM.
 
Old 09-05-2013, 08:20 AM   #11
Gunslinger
 
Joined: Jan 2013
From: Seattle, WA
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianaintright View Post
All kidding aside, distance with a handgun is like running a scooter at a track day. fun every once in a while but not very productive and it's not going to improve your lap times. The time and money spent getting good could be better used honing skills you are statisically going to need in a gunfight. Practice for what's probable....

Might you have to take a 100 yard shot with your defensive handgun? Possibly a very very slim chance and your training time and ammo budget should reflect that.

The Thinking Gunfighter: Self Defense Findings - good info on what's "probable" as compared to what's "possible"
I agree with this for the most part. Pistol rounds suck...the only reason to carry a pistol is that you can have it on you places where you can't take a rifle.

And yes, most legally defensible shootings are going to be close range. To me that's just a given. Most of our training should be focused on this...less on marksmanship, more on moving, shooting on the move, seeing what you need to see (more target focused that front sight focused). Hand to hand material should also be strong...the guys who say "I don't need to know how to fight, I'll just pull my 357 and shoot him!" really have no clue what they're talking about.

So, agreed.

But...but...

A 100 yard pistol shot at body sized targets is NOT difficult. It's nothing more than marksmanship fundamentals. Most guys don't focus on FIGHTING...they focus on marksmanship. And yet the consider 100 yard body shots beyond the realm of reasonable. Unlikely scenario? Yes...but then for anyone with any common sense, any gunfight is an unlikely scenario.

The simplest, easiest, and cheapest form of practice is dry trigger work. That can be done at home, any time. I humbly submit it's easier to attain that skill than other fighting skills. Take 2 minutes a day and do dry work at home...how hard is that? In my not so humble opinion, guys that can't do that are just lazy.

A fighter should be well rounded. That means able to handle stuff from bad breath distance out to the limit of your gun/caliber. Yes, we have to prioritize our training time, of course. But there is time in the day to fit in a few minutes practice...it just requires time and discipline.
 
Old 09-05-2013, 08:24 AM   #12
Gunslinger
 
Joined: Jan 2013
From: Seattle, WA
Posts: 89
Article on a guy that made a 150+ yard pistol shot to stop a threat.

Armed Citizen in TX Stops Shooting Spree and Saves Cop by Making 150+ Yard Shot With a Pistol : The Jack Blood Show

An unlikely scenario, like all shootings. But why not have this skill in your tool box?

It is not that difficult to develop...a lot easier than other skills in fact.
 
Old 09-05-2013, 08:43 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianaintright View Post
All kidding aside, distance with a handgun is like running a scooter at a track day. fun every once in a while but not very productive and it's not going to improve your lap times. The time and money spent getting good could be better used honing skills you are statisically going to need in a gunfight. Practice for what's probable....
practicing for what is probable is why I was shooting long distances with my hunting pistol
 
Old 09-05-2013, 09:38 AM   #14
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I have shot my .45 xd 5" and 1911's offhand (single and double handed) at a silouettes MANY MANY times at 50yrds and 100yrds with the majority center mass. No prob.



I was shooting my AR this weekend at some rocks up on a hill (300-400 yrds no range finder) the rock was probably the size of half a volkswagon. For Fun, I grabbed my pistol just to see if I could hit it.. I hit it with 5-6 out of 10 shots w/my xd subcompact 9mm single hand / offhand? just fuckin around.. some were a few feet high/low.



I guess I figure it's long range if it's hard to see the bullet strike and you need a spotter?

lol
 
Old 09-05-2013, 09:39 AM   #15
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Last time I was turkey hunting, I told the guide if I got my first turkey w/my shotgun, I wanted to hunt the second w/a pistol.


Never got the chance to go after #2.. but it would be fun!
 
Old 09-05-2013, 01:00 PM   #16
Gunslinger
 
Joined: Jan 2013
From: Seattle, WA
Posts: 89
The amount of drop for 180 grain 40 cal at 300 yards is impressive. Let's just say that the holdover is EXTREME. It takes a few ranging shots, but it can be done quickly. Once the range is figured out, it's absolutely possible to take man-sized targets at that range.

I couldn't hit it every time, but when the drop is figured out even the misses are close. Certainly it would be sufficient for suppressive fire (and yes, I know that's a VERY specialized scenario and one where most of us would be hard pressed to justify it. But this was an exercise in what is possible, not what is necessarily likely).

I'm waiting on delivery but I'm in the midst of a 357 Sig conversion. That kind of shooting should be significantly easier with the 357 than with 40.

I forget where I found it but one application for this kind of shooting (again, very specialized and wouldn't apply to 99.9% of folks) - I believe it was a group of DEA agents, working the border. Their ROE did not allow them to carry rifles, yet they potentially had to face cartel people who of course were armed with rifles (nevermind the bad ROE for now). This particular agent decided it would be necessary to use suppressive fire with his 9mm Glock out to ranges of 700 yards. He figured out the necessary adjustments and was able to use it to good effect.

This was outside the range where he could effectively hit anyone except by luck...but it was also out of the range for effective return fire from assault rifles. By knowing the necessary adjustment, he was able to drop rounds amidst the intended targets to get them to vacate the area. Obviously if they'd worked out the same strategy with their rifles they could have done the same thing....but they had not.

Very specialized circumstances but I find it interesting.
 
Old 09-05-2013, 03:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
The amount of drop for 180 grain 40 cal at 300 yards is impressive. Let's just say that the holdover is EXTREME. It takes a few ranging shots, but it can be done quickly. Once the range is figured out, it's absolutely possible to take man-sized targets at that range.

I couldn't hit it every time, but when the drop is figured out even the misses are close. Certainly it would be sufficient for suppressive fire (and yes, I know that's a VERY specialized scenario and one where most of us would be hard pressed to justify it. But this was an exercise in what is possible, not what is necessarily likely).

I'm waiting on delivery but I'm in the midst of a 357 Sig conversion. That kind of shooting should be significantly easier with the 357 than with 40.

I forget where I found it but one application for this kind of shooting (again, very specialized and wouldn't apply to 99.9% of folks) - I believe it was a group of DEA agents, working the border. Their ROE did not allow them to carry rifles, yet they potentially had to face cartel people who of course were armed with rifles (nevermind the bad ROE for now). This particular agent decided it would be necessary to use suppressive fire with his 9mm Glock out to ranges of 700 yards. He figured out the necessary adjustments and was able to use it to good effect.

This was outside the range where he could effectively hit anyone except by luck...but it was also out of the range for effective return fire from assault rifles. By knowing the necessary adjustment, he was able to drop rounds amidst the intended targets to get them to vacate the area. Obviously if they'd worked out the same strategy with their rifles they could have done the same thing....but they had not.

Very specialized circumstances but I find it interesting.


If you shoot at long distances often, you can zero in pretty quick..
The principals are the same as a lot of things we do every day!

 
Old 09-06-2013, 09:24 AM   #18
Gunslinger
 
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Joined: Sep 2011
From: Houston, TX
Posts: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Yamamoto View Post
Article on a guy that made a 150+ yard pistol shot to stop a threat.

Armed Citizen in TX Stops Shooting Spree and Saves Cop by Making 150+ Yard Shot With a Pistol : The Jack Blood Show

An unlikely scenario, like all shootings. But why not have this skill in your tool box?

It is not that difficult to develop...a lot easier than other skills in fact.
Unfortunately that shoot, while incredible, was also vastly overstated. The distance was only 169 feet, not 150 yards. Still absolutely incredible, and a good justification for having the ability to make those kinds of shots.

One Year Later: Vic Stacy and the Peach House Shootout | The Truth About Guns
 
Old 09-06-2013, 10:35 AM   #19
Gunslinger
 
Joined: Jan 2013
From: Seattle, WA
Posts: 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by hualosman View Post
Unfortunately that shoot, while incredible, was also vastly overstated. The distance was only 169 feet, not 150 yards. Still absolutely incredible, and a good justification for having the ability to make those kinds of shots.

One Year Later: Vic Stacy and the Peach House Shootout | The Truth About Guns
Thanks for sharing that...I was not aware that originally reported distance was incorrect.

Of course, hitting someone when you're getting shot at is no easy feat, regardless of the distance.

From a pure marksmanship perspective though, I maintain that any of us should be able to hit body sized targets from 100 yards. And eyeballs at room distance. I don't care if that's the likely necessity or not. Most guys only practice marskmanship, and if that's the case then the marksmanship damn well ought to have a higher standard.

Thanks again for sharing that...I hate posting anything that's not accurate!!
 
Old 09-06-2013, 11:56 AM   #20
Sniper
 
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Interesting. I hadn't considered any of these distances when I read your first post.

For me, 25 yards is a long shot with a pistol. I have a hard time seeing the detail of the target at that distance. I do however take shots like that every time I shoot -- but hardly ever do anything longer than that and not many even at that range. The bulk of my pistol shooting is done at pretty short distances by way of comparison...

I think you guys are making some pretty cool shots with those distances. Kudos to you all!
 
Old 09-06-2013, 12:34 PM   #21
Marksman
 
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Gig Harbor Sportsman's Club only has pistol out to 30 yards, but any time I go "out" to shoot, I try to make a few longshots. It's fun to see how far out you can make a hit.

I remember reading that article about the guy helping the pinned down offier when it happened. Good thing he wasn't in IL, or the police training would have told the officer to then shoot the armed "threat" of the citizen that helped him.
 
Old 09-06-2013, 01:00 PM   #22
Gunslinger
 
Joined: Jan 2013
From: Seattle, WA
Posts: 89
I always prioritize skill over equipment, but once your skill surpasses the limitations of your equipment it's time to upgrade.

Any front sight that is bigger than your target is obviously going to make it more challenging, more in the realm of guesswork than repeatable skill. A stock glock sight is hard enough, let alone those goofy big dot sights (sorry if I offend anyone with those...to each his own, but I do consider them goofy. Unnecessary at close range, and useless at long range).

In the "old days" a lot of guys shot out to incredible distances with pistols...with what most would consider poor sights by today's standards. But those thin front sight posts didn't obscure the whole target, and made those kind of hits possible.

And a good red dot sight makes 100 yard body shots much easier. An RDS won't help if your marksmanship fundamentals aren't up to spec, but if the are, it's almost like cheating.

Particularly for those of us who's eyes aren't getting any younger.
 
Old 09-06-2013, 01:31 PM   #23
Gunslinger
 
Joined: Jan 2009
From: Marysville
Posts: 76
^^ That must be why I seem to like the thin front on my PPQ so much....
 
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