Dilema

If money is an issue, there is no substitute for 9mm. It's the cheapest serious round out there. Walmart just raised their price for federal FMJ from $10 to $12.50 for 50 rounds. I expect 40 to go from 15 to $17. I've never seen it for $12. Let me know where you buy your ammo! 9mm is about 2/3rds the price everywhere I go. per box doesn't sound so bad, but $100 spent on 9mm requires $150 for 40 cal.

And yeah, only a 150 or so FPS difference between a 357 mag and a 9mm. Almost identical bullet weight and size. Get a good defense round and a 9 is great. Still less impact than a bullet with "4" at the front of it, but "stopping power" isn't about getting hit with a sledgehammer. It's about rippin' the crap out of the innards of the mofo getting hit. Hate to be that graphic, but it's true.

Make sure you try out an M&P, they make 'em in 9 and 40. If it's a range gun, try out the Long version. Halfway to a limited IDPA gun with one of those!

In general the cheapest firearms to shoot are those in a current or widely used Military Caliber.

For today's pistols that would be the 9mm. As for the lethality of a 9mm, it is a far better round today than it was when first introduced. Ammunition, specifically bullet design, makes it a better performer than when most of the articles were written and research performed.

Of the two I would get a 9mm. If you still have the urge for something bigger, consider one of the pistols chambered in .40 S&W that also allow you to change to an optional or aftermarket 9mm bbl. Sig P-229's are one such example where one can buy a .40 S&W, drop in a .357 Sig Barrel, or a Barsto 9mm barrel, and even a .22LR conversion. Practice and plink with the cheaper ammo, then change to the larger caliber if you feel the need for some "heavier artillery". Sig's can be a little more expensive but think of it as up to 4 calibers for waaaaay less than the price of 4 firearms. There are other firearms that will do this as well although some limit you to 2 or 3 choices rather than the 4 I illustrated.

deadshot2 said:

Ammunition, specifically bullet design, makes it a better performer than when most of the articles were written and research performed.

If you still have the urge for something bigger, consider one of the pistols chambered in .40 S&W that also allow you to change to an optional or aftermarket 9mm bbl. Sig P-229's are one such example where one can buy a .40 S&W, drop in a .357 Sig Barrel, or a Barsto 9mm barrel, and even a .22LR conversion. Practice and plink with the cheaper ammo, then change to the larger caliber if you feel the need for some "heavier artillery". Sig's can be a little more expensive but think of it as up to 4 calibers for waaaaay less than the price of 4 firearms. There are other firearms that will do this as well although some limit you to 2 or 3 choices rather than the 4 I illustrated.

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Yup on all of this. Most of the hate on 9mm is over 115gr ball/fmj ammo... Duh! Might as well stab someone with a chopstick! :rofl: Seriously though, military ammo needs to change with these terrorists. The idea in organized "first world" warfare used to be to seriously injure dudes, because a dead guy takes two guys (one in pinch if you don't mind dragging him) to deal with. An injured guy requires a minimum of 3 (stretcher, medic, etc). With these jihadies the goal is extermination. They aren't being evaced behind lines for medical care, you know? Time to give the boys in uniform some "critical defense" rounds :top:

Hell yeah on the conversion kits! They exist in 22 cal for a lot of glocks. The S&W M&P can go 40 and 9, if you buy the 40 to begin with. Kimber makes a 22 conversion for any "real" as in traditional 1911. I'm hoping with the popularity of the M&P that someone steps up with a 22 kit. Sooner rather than later. Though I do have a progressive reloader on the way.

philster said:

Seriously though, military ammo needs to change with these terrorists.

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It has. Rather than a .30 cal ball round, they're now "sniping" some of the al Q leaders with missiles from Predators.

Works for me.

deadshot2 said:

It has. Rather than a .30 cal ball round, they're now "sniping" some of the al Q leaders with missiles from Predators.

Works for me.

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Yeah, but I'd rather have the "through and throughs" from the ball turn into "Jeebus! Look at that hole!" on the rank and file with some advanced JHP.

I too was looking for a P99 9mm. The exact one I was looking for I couldn't get, and after reading a few more reviews ended up getting the PPQ in 9mm. Absolutely LOVE IT!!!

The first 15 shots out of it were in about a 3-4 inch grouping at aprox. 7 meters... which for me with a 9mm is incredible since I sucked with my brothers glock 19 at the same distance.

After tax it costed me just under $670. I picked it up last Saturday and have already put a little over 200 rounds through it... hopefully more today. :mfclap:

On another note, a buddy of mine has told me that he won't buy another .40 gun again (don't remember what he has specifically). He said that it has all the problems of the 9mm (snappy) with the problems of a .45 (push back). Maybe it's just the specific gun he has, but when it comes down to practicallity, why not get the gun with the cheaper ammo, which means more bullets fired at the range, which means better accuracy, esp when the critical defense rounds are more than lethal enough for self defense purposes?

Just my thoughts on it. Let us know what you get either way.

DerBarbarian said:

the snap the .40 has me concerned, folks have told me it's not as bad on the Walthers due to their build quality and such, I've had cops tell me that both calibers are good, and either will take down the bad guy it's not necessarily about the caliber it's about the shooters ability to make the shots that count so I'm kind of leaning towards the .40 but with that being said the 9mm also a great gun.. Time to toss a coin I'm sure i'll be happy with what I get.

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Walther build quality? Nah. Lots of us have had it with Walther Build quality:laugh:

Handling recoil is down to a few things. The weight of the gun. The springs in the gun, and maybe the most important thing is how high the barrel sits in the gun. Some folks call it "bore axis" when they want to be fancy. The closer the center of the barrel sits down towards your hand, the more straight back the gun recoil. The higher the center of the barrel sits in the gun away from your hand, the more the front of the gun will tip upwards when you fire. So it's not that it kicks harder, we just feel it that way, because the gun moves more, and recovery from a fired shot takes longer. That's one reason an XD will feel like it has a bigger kick than an S&W M&P. The bore axis is incredibly high on an XD, and very low on an M&P. Glock is lower than an XD too. Doesn't mean the XD is not a GREAT gun! It clearly is, and every generation is better than the last!

Hopefully these pics of an XD and M&P will give you the idea. See how "tall" the XD sits over your hand? Let's face it. All these guns cost the same. $450 to $550. Don't go in with a preconceived idea. Check them all out and pick the gun that has the design features you dig the most, and shoots the best for you. In 9mm it matters less. In 40, I'd look for the lowest barrel axis, and reliability and customer service after purchase.

DerBarbarian said:

If the cost wasn't as high I would get a Sig 229,

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As I said, most of them cost about the same. Shoot em all and get the one that whispers in your ear!:rock: Sounds like it's the Walther all the way. I shot everything and it was the M&P. Over 600 rounds now, and yet to have any failures of any kind. I put 9 out of 10 in the black at 25 yards consistently and my vision SUCKS! I do great with all black sights, but with 3 dots, my eyes really have a hard time keeping my picture (front sight) clear. The gun shoots WAY better than me. But I've learned they all do:lol:

PS, Sig now has a "Certified Pre-owned" gun program. Read up on it, and see if it tickles your fancy. "CPO" 229s as they are called tend to run about $630 at Discount guns. Here's a couple examples. One black, one silver slide.

Sig 229R TT w/ NS CPO - 40 :: Sig Sauer :: Firearms - Handguns :: Discount Gun Sales LLC

Sig 229 CPO - 40 :: Sig Sauer :: Firearms - Handguns :: Discount Gun Sales LLC

I'm a sucker for the 226 myself over the 229. I dig the older smoother lines, and as much as I love polymer guns, all metal is in another league... If you're comfortable with what the factory does to bring them back to spec, it's only around a $100 difference to get your dream gun. And yeah, I know... "Only" $100 can buy a lot of ammo

DerBarbarian said:

If the cost wasn't as high I would get a Sig 229,

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Just exactly what constitutes "High Cost"?

For me, it isn't the money spent of a firearm that fits your hand and shooting style. High Cost is buying a pistol on the basis if price then finding out over time that you really don't like it, or it doesn't shoot well, only to end up selling or trading it eventually for the one you really wanted but turned down because of price.

If you find a pistol you like, and really would like to have, it makes more sense to save a few more dollars an get that one rather than settling for something less just because "you have to have it now".

Take it from someone who learned that lesson many years ago at great expense.:rock:

PS- My daily carry is a Sig P-229.