GregM

Damion has supplied a very nice pdf link and if you do as he suggests and actually read up on what you are talking about you will find some interesting and very descriptive passages


For example

Washington is an “open carry” state for firearms. This means there is a presumption that carrying a handgun in an exposed holster, for instance, is legal except where it is specifically prohibited. Open carry does not require a license. On the other hand, concealed carry of a firearm out in public is generally illegal


RCW 9.41.270 states “It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of others.” Can the men be charged? Obviously people are looking at them a second timewhen they see the guns in plain view.

DETAILED ANSWER / EXPLANATION: (provide sources / references)
The correct answer is: No In this law, mere possession of an openly carried handgun is not prohibited. In order to support an enforcement action under this law the officer must be able to articulate (describe in a convincing manner) malicious intent by the suspect or circumstances that reasonably cause alarm to the public. In either case, because open carry in Washington is presumably legal, the articulation must include something beyond mere, open possession.





The name of this file is.....
Washington State Law Enforcement Training Bulletins regarding Open Carry of Fire arms

__________________
Greg

"If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation...to a continuance in union... I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate.' "
Thomas Jefferson

damion

Ok and the State vs Casad the court found him to be with in the limits of the law now i know that if you are a member of the NRA and you contact them they will help you in cases like that due to the fact thats what they are there for. so out of pocket not much but i think this will be a never ending battle as we all here have diff view so i say we agree to disagree

damion

thank you Greg

ecotechjosh

I don't disagree or agree, I'm simply saying that the law is vague and if some hotshot prosecutor can convince a jury of your peers that you were "intent to intimidate another” then you are fucked.

If someone can't agree that the law is vague and that gun owners should be careful, then they are just as ignorant as the obama zombies and should be shot in the head like a zombie.

The NRA won't protect you. Where was the NRA when Harold Fish got arrested? Where were they when the Brady Bill was passed?

Besides, If you’re going to rely on someone else for your defense, than you might as well just give up your arms now and depend on the government to protect you in the first place…lol...at least you can vote them out of the office (unless King County magically has more votes than residents)

GregM

I don't know how much more clear the text has to be.
Does your computer not open pdf files?
There is not much that is too vague about the file, if you will only read it.

And yes the NRA will help you with your defense if you are a member. And if you think you can get through life without defense and help from lawyers, every now and then, you are in for a big surprise.

And let me turn this around and say that if you fail to stick up for your rights and challenge those who would take your rights away, then it is YOU who are the zombie.

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Greg

"If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation...to a continuance in union... I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate.' "
Thomas Jefferson

ecotechjosh

The vague part is what is considered to be "intimidation". Not only do I read the text, but i actually think about it. You should try it some time.

GregM

If you read it then why is is such a job making you understand it?
Intimidation vague?
You are grasping at straws and this is degenerating into childish defiance.
Believe as you wish and do the same. I'm tired of wasting my time with you.
Go ahead and take the last shot, I'm done

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Greg

"If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation...to a continuance in union... I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate.' "
Thomas Jefferson

damion

congrats my friend you have offically got me to open the door as i was trying to come at this in a civil matter most laws are vauge when it comes to the 2nd Amendment i mean come on really how many years have we as gun owners fought to keep are rights ? ......it ok ill wait........are we not still fighting for those rights today ? and as far as the GOV comments yes you can vote them in and out of office but i would ask you sence your staement is so VAUGE you must be including People Like me .....In the military ....which makes me think you dont like us ........even tho iam currently 7000 miles away from Washington and my Family Right Now Fighting To Keep People Out Of Are Great Country So YOU CAN HAVE YOUR RIGHTS.....BUT thats me looking at your statment from a Vauge point of View .... you know you had me for a min with your first statment in this post but lost me soon after makeing referance to being shot "Like a Zombie", so lets Play the Vague Game pick a law that ref. the 2nd amendment rights in washington and see if you can decribe the law prefectly with out flaw now it must have to deal with the carring of a firearm and we will see if we cant pick it apart ...(now My Turn to Start with the name calling sence we must go there like children ) You as someone Who Is Pro Gun are tring to find Loopholes in the law like a Brady Bunch Member you sir are a hipocrit how can you support Gun Ownership and CC with out trying to find a way to support OC in your defence i never OC but i do have a wife that prefers to as she sees it as a way to keep the BG's far away from her and send a strong message that if push to that point she will protect her children and herself , i dont think you really are reading if you did you would see in some letters of the law CC is Illeagl but in others its not .........O and my GOV does Protect me and you at least i think thats why SGT Howard Paul Allen of the 860th MP co died for on 26SEP 2005 and the rest of my GOV Brothers and Sisters before me and after me .

V/R
Damion

BigStick

I think the part that you are missing is that what is intimidating isn't the question. You have to show Intent to intimidate. And I think you understimate your fellow citizens. Just because the Antis are the loudest doesn't mean that the majority of people aren't rational and pro-gun. That is why we still have our rights. Good luck getting people to agree on exactly what you did to intimidate them if you didn't do anything. If there are five people there claiming you intimidated, I would be willing to bet at least one would be there who would tell the truth and shed light on what actually happened.

If we don't stand up for out rights and educate the uneducated, the squeaky wheel will continue to get oiled.

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Walk Softly...

hubers454

1. if you don't have the money the courts will steam roll over you,,, you could have the bible in one hand and the constitution in the other
2. if you have money you can afford a decent defense, they know they can easly win you are screwed
3. wonder how much it would cost in legal costs $10,000 ?

4. talked to my atorney today, he said don't do it(carry Open) you will be detained and while they are researching it, your gun will be confiscated and you will have to retreive it from the police later

GregM

It's starting to sound like there's some members of the Brady bunch on this forum

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Greg

"If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation...to a continuance in union... I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate.' "
Thomas Jefferson

damion

agreed Greg wow i have now seen it all the brady bunchh has become part of pro gun fight

hubers454

no they were right about all the liberals living west of the Cascades, """ everything is beautiful"""" no frickin reality,

ecotechjosh

WOW! That's intelligent...

Some of us have the courage to protest in peaceful, legal ways such as writing our representatives, getting signatures for proposals and peaceful demonstration.

Belittling people's opinions, views or arguments, IE calling a 30 year old childish, not only shows immaturity but the unwillingness to compromise. This is the same unwillingness that our enemies, IE the Brady Bunch employ.

The simple point I stand to make is that 20 people can do much more good writing their representatives, encouraging people to vote, educating voters about the opposition and educating the moderates about how important the 2nd amendment truly is than sitting in a jail cell waiting for the NRA to magically get them out of jail.

If you want to be a martyr, then go for it. The media will just spin your story into more liberal ammunition that will further alienate the cause. That is just more time and effort I will have to invest to clean up your mess. You've already done enough to alienate the moderate vote. Thanks.

The key to winning this battle is the moderate vote. Walking into Starbucks 20 strong with guns on your hips is not an ideal way to educate the meek moderates. Everyone knows without the swing vote, nothing gets done in this country. The worst possible thing you can do is alienate them.

Whose view is a moderate more likely to consider? Your method being crammed in their face at Starbucks much like that of a terrorist (the use of fear tactics to make political change) or my method of educating them via peaceful protest with signs, TV commercials, hand outs on school campuses etc that the 2nd amendment is the one that guarantees the rest.

I open carry in certain places often and ALWAYS conceal carry. Nothing would bring more joy to my heart than to live in a state of armed citizens responsible for themselves. There is a time and place for everything.

We live in Washington State which unfortunately is ruled by the Democrats (for the time being anyhow). The more we educate the meek moderates as to just how horrible and extreme the democrats truly are, the more votes and eventual change we will make. You would be surprised how many moderates vote democrat even though they don't share any democrat views (they just don't know it!)

For example, Partial Birth Abortion was a great topic that I used during the last election to steal TONS of democrat votes. This time around it wasn't enough but there is always next time.

Wake up and look at the big picture.

ecotechjosh

and here is an article which explains the simple point I was trying to make.
Washington Law Enforcement and Open Carry | Red County

IE, some outspoken liberal jackass comfronts you at Starbucks, you have a few choice words back (or the liberal lies which omg they do so often), you go to jail for intimidation. Your word versus the liberals in a liberal state court system. Have fun.

There are much better, smarter ways to fight this battle that don't Alienate us in the eyes of the moderates.

GregM

Any other constitutional rights you guys are afraid to exercise?

__________________
Greg

"If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation...to a continuance in union... I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate.' "
Thomas Jefferson

ecotechjosh

wow, how much more ignorant does it get?

You are the reason why moderate voters are apt to vote for people like Obama without even knowing what he is all about.

Besides, what experience do you even have in the matter? Have you ever defended yourself with a firearm?

Someone on this forum that I know VERY well has and 20 years later he still has to make 30 phone calls, send letters and petition every time he tries to purchase something FFL.

20 years later and not guilty he is still paying the price. And yes he was a NRA member back then.

hubers454

I would like to ask how many Democrats Greg and the others posting here voted for? knowing that they have trashed the constitution over and over. I alway vote pro gun always and have personally defended the constitution in court. anyone anyone?

GregM

Well there are people that believe that if they just tip toe around and never raise their eyes to meet anyone else's gaze and speak it a quiet little voice and let their girl friend drive them around, they will be safe and secure and happy (in a mousy sort of way).
But that's not my idea of being a man or living a life. Maybe that works for you, I don't know.
Also.....
Calling people ignorant because they don't agree with your is pretty juvenile

Now you're really getting childishly absurd and desperate.

Yes, a few times, I just don't brag about it. Have you?
And do you think that has got something to do with exercising constitutional and state rights? It doesn't.

Yah Yah
A friend of someone you know, knew this guy who once had a brother, that......
Seems like all your experience is actually someone else's.


You don't want to OC fine, don't.
You've had your say.

But I'm guessing I've had at least about three times more time on this planet to consider things than you have and I'm pretty sure you are not is going to change my mind for me until you get a little more life under your belt.

Again..... good day

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Greg

"If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation...to a continuance in union... I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate.' "
Thomas Jefferson

GregM

None (not that it's any of your business)

Great, keep it up

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Greg

"If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation...to a continuance in union... I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate.' "
Thomas Jefferson

BigStick

I bolded the key points, which I think you need to pay attention to. The key here is don't get angry and don't be aggressive.

From what I can tell from your posts, you might have a little problem with this. Temper, pride and aggression are not good traits to have while being armed(openly or not). I think that is where the disconnect between the points of view is. If you cannot allow someone to say "a few choice words" to you and not have to respond or argue, then you probably should not open carry.

For those who can keep a cool head and not be goaded into an act of aggression, there is not the same risk of any legal problems.

So I will agree with you ecotechjosh. If a person is not able or willing to keep a cool head when confronted by a rude, offensive, intentionally aggrivating anti-gun person while out open carrying, they should probably not OC. For those who can ignore and deescalate, I would ask them to please OC whenever possible(in a peacable and non-threatening manner), to allow the people to see that it is not a crime, and they have nothing to fear from an armed, honest citizen.

__________________
Walk Softly...

ecotechjosh

no comments like this are childish. I call you ignorant because instead of defending your beliefs you mock and insult. That action by definition is ignorant.

Again with another personal attack. This is the tactic of cowards. Instead of making any type of debatable argument, you make personal attacks that are irrelevant, unfounded and not remotely true. You don't even know me nor anything about me.

This is the person I'm referring to. If you do a quick search you can find a post where he describes his shootout briefly.

That would put you near the 90 mark and I have to raise the BS flag. I also call BS that you've been involved in any type of major case involving a firearm.

If you have been, then you would know to error on the side of caution where the law is concerned because the consequences are severe.

My approach, the correct, legal and civilized approach is the one that will earn respect, support and guarantee gun rights for the generations to come.

Your gung ho approach is both irresponsible and ignorant of the consequences.

Unfortunately being all talk on the internet that you are (if you weren't all talk you'd already be a martyr for the cause), it won't be you who has to defend yourself in court.

It will be some poor kid that has ruined the rest of his life because he believed everything you wrote on the internet without considering the consequences.

"While we are contending for our own liberty, we should be very cautious not to violate the rights of conscience in others, ever considering that God alone is the judge of the hearts of men, and to him only in this case they are answerable."

GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter to Benedict Arnold, Sep. 14, 1775

ecotechjosh

Not anger at all, just a subject that I am passionate about.

And that is the exact mistake that I'm trying to save some poor soul from making. Unfortunately the law is vague as to what "intimidate" is meant.

Is simply saying to a liberal "I disagree with you" legally intimidating? Knowing the monetary and costs of time which cases like that devour, I would rather not find out nor wish anyone else to.

Especially when there are better ways to represent the cause.

svytlana

so is anyone ont the board here a local officer, that would like to pitch in with there professional thoughts?

GregM

The Second Amendment Fight | CS Tactical



Starbucks has brushed aside a request from a gun control advocacy group to ban the display of guns in its retail locations, saying it will abide by laws that allow patrons to openly carry unloaded weapons.

The national Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence made the request in the wake of a series of meetings in local restaurants over the past few months by Bay Area Open Carry, a group that hopes to make it legal to carry loaded guns in California. Peets Coffee & Tea and California Pizza Kitchen responded to similar requests by banning displays of weapons in the companies' coffeehouses and restaurants.

"Starbucks does not have a corporate policy regarding customers and weapons; we defer to federal, state and local laws and regulations regarding this issue," Starbucks' customer relations department said in response to the Brady Campaign's request.

The head of a local chapter of the Brady Campaign was disappointed by the response.

"I don't want someone who carries a gun into a store to be making life-and-death decisions. I don't think it's safe for them to be there," said Griffin Dix, who leads the Oakland-Alameda County chapter, which has more than 500 members and other chapters in San Mateo and Contra Costa counties.

The Brady Campaign has sent e-mails to its approximately 180,000 members nationwide suggesting that they e-mail Starbucks asking the coffee giant to create an anti-gun policy.

An active participant in the Bay Area Open Carry chapter hailed Starbucks' approach.

"We definitely applaud Starbucks for allowing law-abiding citizens to defend themselves and we will continue to patronize them as long as they do," said Brad Huffman, who is also a National Rifle Association-certified instructor and member of Bay Area Open Carry, which lists 610 members on its Facebook page.

Huffman said Open Carry advocates often visit Starbucks displaying unloaded weapons, either during formal events or informally. The Antioch chapter of the group has had about six meetings at a Starbucks there, he said. Other meetings have taken place at a Peet's in San Ramon and in Livermore at Panama Red Coffee Co.

Open Carry has a scheduled event today in Walnut Creek, but has not announced a location.

__________________
Greg

"If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation...to a continuance in union... I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate.' "
Thomas Jefferson

GregM

Oh sorry the way you have been talking, I figured the school you were talking about being a student of was high school. My bad. I guess I'm only twice as old, if you are actually as old as you would like us to believe.

And you would know this how?
Or is it that you are just trying to call me a liar?

Yes, that's why I do my research instead of thinking I know everything because some friend of a friend said they know someone who....

Just because you say so doesn't make it true.
And by the way, what exactly is your approach? All I remember hearing you say is "You can't do that because......"
Suppose you tell use how to secure the rights we are talking about.
Come on do us a favor

And again, you know this how?

You sure think you know a lot about me for knowing nothing about me.
Martyr? Now that would be stupid

I can't speak for the actions of others nor can I stop them from foolish acts. What I can do is what I think is right and I will not stop doing what I think is right because some fool might do something stupid. The internet is a great research tool, but that's all. Everyone should educate themselves and do their own research.
Anyone who thinks they know something because someone they know told them so is an idiot. Know what I mean?

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Greg

"If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation...to a continuance in union... I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate.' "
Thomas Jefferson

hubers454

still the unanswered question,,,,, Greg did you vote Liberal? I myself am proud of how I voted (conservative) pro gun all the way No Democrats hehehe

GregM

I answered that

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Greg

"If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation...to a continuance in union... I have no hesitation in saying, 'let us separate.' "
Thomas Jefferson

RCJIM

http://www.californiaopencarry.org/C...aOpenCarry.pdf