Rover vs bikes....

Brianaintright · Oct 2, 2013

ROAD RAGE: NY Bikers vs SUV Range Rover Cager assault Biker attack Cager in New York City Motorcycle - YouTube

I know this is all over the place recently but I wanted to discuss it here from a self defense standpoint. What are your thoughts? Suggestions on alternatives if any? At what point would you have started shooting?

I'd like to break this down a bit and get people thinking about scenarios like this.

Unfortunately this guy is in NY so the chances he would be allowed to have a gun would be minimal but lets not get into that.

sunofnun · Oct 2, 2013

I saw this, and have commented.
IMHO - The guy defending his family was in the right.

IN my opinion (and I don't know the laws about self defense)

He Fled the initial scene (causing damage to bikes) and was quite visibly trying to get out of a situation where he would have had to use a gun for defense (although had he ran someone over it may have been manslaughter justifiable or not -- his car became a deadly weapon)

+1 for this ending with shots fired

He was then pursued for quite some time ( I would imagine you would be on the phone w/911 and trying to get LEO support)

+2 (if it happened) for this ending with shots fired

At the second stop I would have used deadly force after the guy hit the window with his helmet the first time.. all other options seemed to be exhausted?

+3 for shots fired - all other avenues exhausted, fearing for your life and/or your families

Ok boz, go.. break it down?

ShelbyGuy · Oct 2, 2013

sunofnun said:
I saw this, and have commented.
IMHO - The guy defending his family was in the right.

IN my opinion (and I don't know the laws about self defense)

He Fled the initial scene (causing damage to bikes) and was quite visibly trying to get out of a situation where he would have had to use a gun for defense (although had he ran someone over it may have been manslaughter justifiable or not -- his car became a deadly weapon)

+1 for this ending with shots fired

He was then pursued for quite some time ( I would imagine you would be on the phone w/911 and trying to get LEO support)

+2 (if it happened) for this ending with shots fired

At the second stop I would have used deadly force after the guy hit the window with his helmet the first time.. all other options seemed to be exhausted?

+3 for shots fired - all other avenues exhausted, fearing for your life and/or your families

Ok boz, go.. break it down?

this

Brianaintright · Oct 2, 2013

Applying the litmus test of a reasonable fear of serious bodily injury or death to the initial scenario, I'm in no doubt the driver of the rover was well within his rights to act in the manner he did. From what I can see, riders were laying bikes down around his vehicle to prevent his escape while the mob closed in.

People have raised concerns that all he had to do was lock his doors but having experienced mobs attacking vehicles, I can honestly say your vehicle is more a hinderance to your escape than a shield from an angry mob if it's not moving. We timed an aggressive assault by 4 subjects on a stationary vehicle with locked doors and it took all of 12 seconds to gain entry and have two of the doors open. Just the press of bodies can compromise side windows. Theres lots of **** on any street that can be easily accessed to break glass. If youre removed from the vehicle, youre stewed. sheer mass of attackers will break bones and truly mess you up. You can only effectively defend from one or possibly two attackers at a time so youre looking at a huge beat down and if you go to the ground, your chances of living are very slim. (Reginald Denny?) Basically, If you're in your car and your escape route is closing due to the aggressive actions of others, your only options are to hit the gas or start shooting.

Actively breaking contact with a mob is achieved either through extensive use of belt fed weapons (not readily available here and would look real bad on youtube) or immediately capitalizing on their initial reaction to your use of force. That split second where the startle resonse kicks in may be your only window to GTFO. Waiting too long or staying to engage may allow some of them time to overcome that natural reaction and respond, either by overwhelming you or pulling weapons of their own.

So, yea....this guy did things as well as he could have initially. Not sure what his plan was but running for a police station, state trooper barracks or anyplace you knew there would be cops would be high on my list.....As long as it was right off the highway! Getting off a freeway on a crowded street stopped his vehicle and allowed the attack. Had he stayed on, he had the advantage of mass and the range rover could have crushed bikes all day long.

Mark W · Oct 2, 2013

He did run over one of the guys who laid his bike down in front of the SUV. that guy has two broken legs and is paralyzed He has also been charged with attempted kidnapping. The NY District Attorney is going to town on the Bikers.

As to when I would have started shooting. At the moment the guy broke the window.

but had I been driving the guy that broke the window never would have made it that far as I would have had no hesitation at using the SUV as a defensive weapon and wacking about 1/4 of them A holes off their rides.

Limitless · Oct 3, 2013

And they don’t see why anyone would need more than 7 rounds.

Fast Eddie · Oct 3, 2013

I cant say for sure what the Genesis of this conflict was, so I don't for sure know what I would have done. If it was a perceived slight from the bikers that escalated as it did on video, because the guy did something they thought merited that annoyed biker response, we all like to talk about on PNWriders, He is justified.

If he stood his ground in traffic, and the bikers didn't like that, then he had some role to play in the escalation. Personally I try to acquiesce to folks doing stupid on the road and give them plenty of room to do it. Having said that, I do occasionally piss people off by maneuvering heavy traffic, I wont run over someone, but there are those times where you have to be assertive or you ain't getting over, or I just don't see them -_- It's hard to admit, but it does happen even though I am an official PNWriders Superbiker. In this scenario, I would try and escape the situation, if I were unlucky enough to find myself in it in the first place. This is what I believe happened, and because the bikers pursued trouble they found it. One guy may not be ambulatory for the rest of his life because of the mob mentality he allowed himself to be swept up in, pending legal issues add insult to injury.

If the guy was an aggressive douchetard toward the bikers, then it's a day when many fools met and got more than they bargained for. If he picked the fight, if the guy in the Rover was the initial aggressor, He is not justified in running bikers over, or shooting them. do you defend you family because it got out of control? Yes, but then you have to face the consequences of placing your family in that situation and using overwhelming or deadly force to escape it.

It's a really fine line, there are a lot of facts because of the video, but not all of them, so there are a lot of hindsight judgments you and I can make. I would not want my fate in the hands of Witnesses, Law Enforcement, Jurors, Prosecutors or Judges, if I had the option to not be in that position. I don't believe the driver of the Rover was of that mindset.

BigStick · Oct 11, 2013

I feel like driving away when a mob is surrounding your car is really the only option. How many of those bikers do you think were armed? You shoot one, and the rest open up on your car, family included. Getting away was the only viable option. He just needed to keep driving until he could call help to meet him on the road.

But from a legal perspective, if he started it, he is in a world of hurt. From what charges have been file already though, he might be in the clear. Might need to move to a state where there are none of those biker gang members though.

DevilDoc · Oct 11, 2013

I've been saying there had to be more to this than was initially reported..

Off-camera acts led to NYC run-in with SUV driver, bikers say | Fox News

Brianaintright · Oct 11, 2013

Might be more to it but even if he had clipped the bike, should the group take it upon themselves to detain him? It would be against the law here for them to do that.

Why not get his plate, call it in? you start laying bikes down in front of a car while swarming it and I'd run too.

Rover vs bikes....

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